Stories That Shape Us Children’s Literature in a Changing World

Gethin Jones 
Hi, everybody. Welcome to the session for children’s literature at Goldsmiths, University of London. My name is Gethin. I’ll be hosting the session today. We’re just going to give it a couple of minutes, maybe 30 seconds for people to join. Just to tell you a little bit of housekeeping for the session.  

We should be here for around 45 minutes up to possibly 50 minutes, depending on how many questions we get. And we will be recording the session as well. So don’t worry if you miss anything, you will be sent a link to the recording after the session as well. Looks like we’re getting quite a few people coming in now, which is great. 
 
I think we’re good to make a start. Okay, so welcome everyone. Stories that shape us, children’s literature in a changing world. This is an introduction to the online master’s degree in children’s literature at Goldsmiths.  

I’m Gethin, I manage the student engagement team for the online degrees at Goldsmiths, so I’m here for anything to do with admissions, entry requirements, support through that application process, and all the way up to enrolment, really. And I’m also joined by programme convener Dr Emily Colbert. Do you want to say a quick hello? 

 
Emily Corbett  
Hi everyone, it’s so lovely to be with you all. It’s a great honour of mine to run this programme, so I look forward to talking to you all about it today. 

Gethin Jones 
Thanks, Emily. Okay, so just a quick update in terms of participation. So, you can type questions as you go. You should see a little Q&A function on the portal screen. Post it in there. We might pick up some questions as we go through the session. 
 

And I might answer some in the background as well, depending on the nature of the questions. But we will try and answer all of the questions in the session. And if we don’t manage to do that, we will get back to you after the session on e-mail. My team will follow up with you. There is a little upvote function as well. So if you find that question is useful or something that you were thinking of asking as well, it’s always worth upvoting it and then it’ll be there for others to see at the top of the list then.  

Okay, so agenda for today, we’re going to meet with Dr Emily Corbett, programme convener for the programme, give you some information as to why. Choosing Goldsmiths as a place to study, especially the online version of the course. The course itself, an overview, and then we’re going to have a little bit of a taster lecture from Emily, which will be sort of midway through the session, which will be something to really zoom in on because there’s some insights there into the type of things that you’ll be that you’d be looking at as a student of the programme. And then some career opportunities, some insights into the online study environment, the virtual learning environment, as we call it, and then how to apply and some of the sort of formalities and processes as well.  

Okay, but first of all, I’m going to hand you over to Emily to do a little bit of introduction. 

 
Emily Corbett 
Thanks, Gethin. Yeah, this is a bit interesting. It feels like giving my CV to you all, but it’s always nice to know who you’ll be spending some time with when you join the programme. So yeah, I’m a children’s and young adult literature specialist. I have a PhD in children’s literature specifically.  

I also have the huge privilege of being a general editor for the International Journal of Young Adult Literature, which I’ve been involved with since its inception and just seeing that grow is wonderful. 

And then at the university, I co-lead the children’s and YA literature strand of the Centre for Language, Culture and Learning. I run the online programme, that’s what we’re here to talk about today, but I also run the on-campus version of the programme and supervise PhD students in children’s and young adult literature as well. 
 

And then we’ve also got, if I could just ask you to go to the next slide, please, Gethin. Now, most people know about Professor Michael Rosen before they know about the programme. He needs no introduction, but we shall do it anyway. So Michael has got a career history of children’s literature involvement. You know, he’s one of the most wonderful people I’ve ever had the privilege to meet. 
 

He’s a poet and children’s author with world famous classics such as We’re Going on a Bear Hunt and Chocolate Cake. He was a children’s laureate from 2007 to 2009. And most recently, he’s been the recipient of the Hans Christian Andersen Award, which is a sort of service award for lifetime achievement in children’s literature. And he is one of the tutors alongside myself on the programme. And we also have somebody called Michelle who will be joining us. She doesn’t start at the university until September, so I will save introductions until she’s with us, but she’s also just a wonderful human being. 
 

Thanks, Gethin. 

 
Gethin Jones   
Thanks, Emily. And yeah, we did a great session with Michael quite recently as well. So if anybody wanted to look into that session, there’s a recording that we can follow up with as well. OK, studying at Goldsmiths Online, do you want to give a little bit of an insight into what students could expect? 

 
Emily Corbett  
Yeah, of course. So Goldsmiths, you might already know, has quite a reputation for being a real home for creative and critical thinkers. And we really, we spend our time asking the tough questions. We spend it thinking about how we can do things differently, you know, at the world, in the world at large, but also specifically in children’s literature. 
 

This programme is really an insight into asking those sorts of questions. We’re based in London, which is somewhat of a global hub of children’s literature and publishing, but it also means that we benefit from a global community of learners, so students from around the world. We’re one of the few children’s literature programmes in the UK, so we focus on bringing together lots of different aspects of the field. 
meaning we’re just as good for those who are working in publishing as those who are working in teaching, etc. And the online degree specifically is a bit of an invitation to join a community of students from all different walks of life. You’ll benefit from the same standards of teaching as our on-campus programme. As I’ve mentioned already, it’s the same faculty. 
 

But the big difference for you will be in the level of flexibility we’re able to offer online, both in terms of what you’re studying and when and where you’re doing your work. This really is a version of the programme that’s designed to fit around you and around your life, no matter what else you’ve got going on within it. 

 
Gethin Jones  
And a little bit about university and the kind of profile and brand and identity, I suppose, Emily. 

 
Emily Corbett   
Yeah, of course. So as you can see from the screen, we’re a top 10 university in London. We’ve got over 120 years of experience as an institution. I personally have had the privilege of working at Goldsmiths for four years now.  

But Children’s Literature, specifically at Goldsmiths, has been taught since 2014. It was actually Michael who set up the programme alongside the head of department at the time, Dr. Maggie Pitfield. And they were doing a module on children’s literature as part of their wider MA in education.  

And they decided that that wasn’t enough and that they needed a little bit more. There were more opportunities to study. So that is how children’s literature was sort of born. Michael designed the programme from its infancy all the way up to today where you see the version of the programme that we’ve just taken online. But all of this taps into the reputation that Goldsmiths, I hope, already has around the world for, like I’ve mentioned, the kind of creative critical innovation that we’re so proud of. 

 
Gethin Jones    
And then why children should matters, you know, both as a subject and to study it as a subject as well, I suppose, I think. 

 
Emily Corbett  
Yeah, it’s one of my favourite questions when it’s asked nicely, like Gethin just has, but it’s also one of the most challenging questions that we face in children’s literature sometimes, because children’s literature as a field has long been stigmatised as, you know, less of that, less complicated, less important, less worthy of study in some way. 
 

But I mean, I know I’m biassed when I say this, but it could not be more wrong to think of it in this way, because children’s literature is just fundamentally important socially. It is quite literally what helps us to raise young people. But it’s also a masterclass in form, you know, in technique. It’s worthy of its own theories, its own approaches. And it’s also one of the most dynamic forms of publishing, if that’s something that you’re interested in. 
 

get new trends, new forms, digital innovations. It’s one of the fastest moving types of literature, as well as having it sort of golden age classics. And I mean, again, I’m biased, but I just think it’s jolly old fun to study. Who wouldn’t want to spend their time immersed in the world of children’s books? You get that perfect balance of nostalgia, but critical thinking, thinking about the future, thinking about the way that 
children’s literature can enhance the lives of young people. So yeah, that’s why it matters to me. Everyone has their own personal reasons of why it matters to them.  

On the programme, the first cohort at the moment, we’ve got, you know, people who already work in publishing or people who are wanting to do career shifting. We’ve got people for whom this is a way of connecting to their own children, etc. So 
As much as I can tell you why children’s lit, I also want to throw it back to all of you to have a think about why it matters to you, you know, why you want to be here. 

 
Gethin Jones  
I think it’s fair to say that, you know, like I managed conversations with students over the short while up to the most recent intake, and you know, there’s an intense passion for these, you know, programmes and, you know, there’s a real heartwarming connexion a lot of the time in terms of you know, the reasons for studying and, you know, personal development, but also career development. So that comes across very clear in my dealings with applicants as well, yeah. 

 
Emily Corbett 
Yeah, oh, I’m really glad. My friends always ask me why I’m not part of a book club, because it makes a lot of sense. You can see how many books I’ve got behind me. And I say, well, I am part of a book club. You know, I run 2 MA programmes and we talk about books all the time because it really, it has that opportunity to be incredibly rigorous, whether you want to be a researcher, a creative writer, etc. but also just a community of people who care about something that matters to us personally and also globally. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Yeah. 
Absolutely. Oops, I got too far there in a sec. 
I’m going too far again. There we go. 

 
Emily Corbett  

Yeah, so right, just a little bit about sort of the USPs of the unique selling points of the course, if you like. Quite often people something that somebody called John Rowe Townsend said when he was talking about the study of children’s literature. And he divided it into two different categories of people who are interested in children’s literature, the book people and the child people. So meaning that, you know, the people that approach it as text and the people that approach it as a way of connecting with young people. 
 

But one of the things that I’m most proud of for our programme and that we’ve put a lot of work into is that we are both for the book people and the child people. And we recognise that those people aren’t actually that distinct all of the time.  

So as it says on the slide there, our MA offers a cohesive experience. It covers all facets of children’s literature. So there’s the chance to explore theory and practice, to focus on inclusion and diversity within contemporary children’s literature. 
 

We offer opportunities to apply theoretical ideas to practical and professional contexts, thinking about research and professional application. We also, not that I like to dwell on assessments because I do genuinely think they’re not the most important thing in the world, but we do offer a range of assessment methods and near complete flexibility and choice of topics. 
 

So we offer very practical sort of applied assessments from thinking about marketing, etc, through to the very deeply theoretical research essays, through to creative writing and the application of these ideas through creative practice. And as I mentioned, near complete flexibility and choice of topics. 
 

We don’t set questions to go and explore. You tell us what research project you’re interested in pursuing and we create the environment to enable you to do it, you know, within the sort of boundaries of the programme. Yeah, I think that’s what covers it, Gethin. 
 

Oh, some quick facts. 

 
Gethin Jones   
Thanks, Emily. Yeah, so quick facts, you know, this is, as we’ve kind of touched on already, you know, an online course, you know, completely online. It’s A part-time approach which offers that flexibility around access and managing it around, you know, a busy life and a work schedule, family commitments, etc. 
 

180 total credits, as you’d expect from the full master’s degree, which is split up into eight taught modules and then an additional dissertation. And you can actually, in terms of tuition fees, you can pay as you go, you know, you can pick up from a modular perspective and the total tuition then states here is £12,500 for the whole programme, but we do also have the post-grad certificate and diploma options as well, if you wanted to start off or exit the programme with a certificate or diploma along the way too. I should mention as well, we do have for the August intake, so our deadline is coming up I think the 7th of August for our 31st of August start.  

Okay, so even though it’s August, it’s actually right at the end of August, so it’s like nearly September. And we do have a £1000 scholarship for anybody applying to that August intake. 
 

And then we also have an October intake later in the year as well. Anything you wanted to add there, Emily? 

 
Emily Corbett  
Only one very small note, which is, yeah, Gethin is exactly right on the eight taught modules and then the dissertation.  

But for those of you who are joining us wanting to pursue creative writing particularly, you have the option to choose between a traditional research dissertation and also an extended portfolio of creative writing. 
 

So all of the students across the modules, and we’ll go into this in a little bit more detail in just a second, cover both critical and creative practice, but then you have that option to specialise as a creative writer for the final sustained project. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Brilliant, thanks Emily. Oh yeah, we’re going to a bit more detail on that content now. 

 
Emily Corbett   
Yeah, precisely that. So here on the screen, you’ve got a list of the modules that we are currently offering. They’re broken into phases.  

So you can see in phase 1, we’ve got form and genre, inclusion and diversity, publishing histories and writing childhoods.  

Phase 2 contemporary publishing, writing futures, methods, methodology. And then phase three is that final project that I was just talking about. So either the research dissertation or for the creative writing portfolio.  

I don’t really have time to go into the detail of every single module, but we do have all of the module specs published online, so you’ll be able to have a look in detail. But just to give you a little bit of insight into form and genre as a bit of a taster.  

So within that module, we think about, as it says on the tin, we think about genres and forms, but we also think about conventions across historical and cultural contexts.  

We examine how genre conventions intersect with ideologies and literary traditions. We critique theoretical approaches to genre and form and really focus on situating texts within broader literary and cultural debates. 
 

So you’d be studying books like Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland, alongside more contemporary verse novels like Dean Atter’s The Black Flamingo, plus poetry, of course, including Michael’s, alongside picture books, comics, etc. It’s worth noting, just for those of you who would be joining the August intake, that you will start with the module inclusion and diversity. And it’s from that module that I’ve developed a little bit of a taster lecture so you’ll get a sense of what some of that will involve in just a minute. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Brilliant, thank you, Emily. Okay, some info on career pathways and opportunities. Do you want to give a little bit of insights from your perspective, Emily? 

 
Emily Corbett    

Yeah, of course. So I think, as I mentioned earlier, the MA in Children’s Literature for some people can be about shifting careers.  

It can be about giving you this creative editorial and critical insight that can help you pivot something that has been maybe a lifelong interest or maybe even a new interest into something that you’re wanting to take into a professional space. 

  
So we particularly think about roles that would require this sort of deeper insight, whether that be into children’s literature or literature in the arts more generally.  

So you have the opportunity to build the research led editorial skills, develop your analytical thinking, craft a career grounded in creativity. And we’ve pulled together just a few of the organisations that we have. 

People have gone on to work in or that we have internship opportunities with, etc. So we’ve got Book Trust, Usborne, which is one of the largest independent children’s publishers in the UK, Bloomsbury, the Centre for Literacy and Primary Education.  

Really is sort of a myriad of opportunities of direct and indirect careers and specifically from the programme as well. 
 

Well, you know, I often have potential students say, well, are you actually going to help me get a job? And I won’t lie to you. The world is difficult at the minute. We know that. We know that the job market is difficult. But I do promise that we do our utmost to support people into the next phase of life that they want to enter.  

So I’ve had students go on to be literally agents. I’ve had students go on to work at Book Trust. I’ve also had students who career wasn’t their focus particularly, or they’re already well-established teachers and they’re just wanting to upskill themselves, etc.  

So what I’m offering you is a little bit of bespoke attention in the sense of you tell us what your ambitions are and we will do our utmost to help you get there in whatever way we possibly can. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Yeah, I think that’s a good point. Is that, you know, you tend to get out of it where you put in as well. So, you know, definitely engage as much as you possibly can.  

If you’ve got any specific questions, then just make sure you’re in contact with Emily and the team. And yeah, I think, is it worth pointing out as well, like, you know, from a creative writing perspective.  

There are elements, Emily, but this is more like a kind of holistic combination of critical elements as well as it’s not like a creative writing degree per se, is it?  

 
Emily Corbett  
No, exactly that. It’s really thinking holistically. That’s a great word for it. So you can come into this as a creative writer and we already have multiple students who are creative writers on the programme. And you can use this as an opportunity to hone your creative writing modules and there’s that extended portfolio.  

But really, we’re interested in getting these conversations going between all of these different facets of children’s literature so that you are sort of developing a rounded interest. And when it comes to writing for children, you already have that knowledge of the market, the publishing and of what matters within children’s books. 

 
Emily Corbett 
So we’re absolutely a space for creative writers to flourish, but we do that by enabling all of you to engage with all different sorts of study within children’s literature. 

 
Gethin Jones   
Excellent, thanks, Emily. Okay, I think now is your little section where you’re going to do a little taster element. So I shall leave it to it. 

 
Emily Corbett  
Thank you very much. I wanted to start, actually, I know that you’re all on mute. I know that you can’t speak to me, but I just wanted to give you a second to dwell on who recognises these images and more importantly, who recognises what they mean in the context of children’s literature.  

And I will stare awkwardly at the screen for a second now whilst you have time to think. 
 

OK, I’ll tell you. So these images represent the idea that literature can offer children mirrors, windows and sliding glass doors. These metaphors were introduced in the early 1990s by Dr. Rudy Sims Bishop, who’s a scholar of African American children’s literature. 
 

And they were introduced really to capture why inclusion and diversity is so important. So if we work through the metaphors, mirrors allow children to see their own lives and their own experiences reflected in what they read.  

Windows let them look into the lives and experiences of others who may be different from them. And sliding glass doors provide a way to sort of step into these worlds. 
to foster empathy and to foster understanding by sort of metaphorically walking in somebody else’s shoes. So as you might imagine, when children’s identities, experiences and lives aren’t represented in the books they read, it can tell them a lot about their world and their place within it. 
 

And just to give you a very sobering example, a researcher called Dr. Darren Chetty did a little bit of a project with children of colour where he invited them to draw children’s books. And they all drew them with pink sort of flesh, pink flesh skin with that colouring, as opposed to the tones that match their own skin tones.  

And when he asked them why, they essentially said, oh, because it’s white children that are in children’s books. They really didn’t see themselves within it. And today I’m going to focus our discussion on that lens of race specifically, though we could also consider lots of other forms of of identity and indeed we do in the inclusion and diversity module from sexuality to ability, etc. But I want to ask this question, which is what mirrors do children have available to them? 
 

So if we look backwards, in 1965, Nancy Laric published this groundbreaking article called The All White World of Children’s Books, and it highlighted the severe, very severe underrepresentation of people of colour in children’s literature in the United States of America. And her study found that only 6.7% of children’s books published between, I think it was 1962 in 1964 actually included any black characters. And while progress has been made since then, change has been really slow.  

So in 2014, which, you know, 12 years ago is still a little while ago, but not that long ago, the We Need Diverse Books movement came about and it was in response to a situation where was this all-white, all-male panel of children’s authors at BookCon. 
 

And Ellen O and Melinda Lowe, who are authors in their own right, expressed their frustration on Twitter. And it sparked this viral conversation using the hashtag, we need diverse books. And what began as this social media activism evolved into now a formal nonprofit organisation. But importantly, it really re-sparked this conversation about representation and lack thereof. So in 2018, what you’ll see on the screen there, the Cooperative Children’s Book Centre publish annual statistics, which show the racial diversity of US children’s literature.  

And we can see that as recently as 2018, 50% of children’s books featured white main characters. And you’ll note the way the illustrator has used the concept of mirrors there to really illustrate that, even down to the disco ball. So 50% of children’s books featured white main characters. 27% featured animals or other, so cars, pencils, whatever it might be. 
 

10% featured African or African American characters, 7% featured Asian Pacific Islander or Asian Pacific American characters, 5% Latinx characters, and only 1% featured American Indians and First Nations characters.  

And I’m really sad to say that the situation is not too dissimilar in the UK children’s publishing context. 
 

Gethin, if you could just pop the next slide on, and then I’ll invite you all again to take a pause and consider these statistics, which are from a recent Reflecting Realities report by the Centre for Literacy and Primary Education. So they’re showing the percentage of children’s books published featuring racially minoritized characters. What do you notice? Other than the fact that it looks like a Christmas tree, which is what I always first notice. But if we look behind that and the more serious stuff, what do you notice? 
 

So in essence, we can see that from 2017 to 2022, there was this steady increase in the percentage of children’s books published that featured racially minoritized characters, rising from 4%, it breaks my heart to say that statistic, 4% in 2017 through to 7% in 2018. 10% in 2019, 15% in 2020, and then 20% in 2021, reaching 30% in 2022. 
 

However, when we come to 2023, there’s this significant decline back down to 17%, which marked the first decrease in representation over the period. And while the overall trend is good, you know, it shows notable progress from 4% in 2017 up to 
The recent decline does raise questions about the sustainability of the gains in diverse representation. And Ellen Oh, one of the authors I mentioned, is the founder of We Need Diverse Books. She says, you know, diversity isn’t a trend, it’s a fact of life. And yet we seem in danger of the recent gains in diverse representation really being treated as just that, you know, a trend, when they should be consistent and they should be sustainable.  

And I will say, if anyone’s joining us from outside of the UK today, you might want to have a look at your own national context to see if you can think of any sort of similar research. You know, are there any comparable studies to that of the CCBC or the Centre for Literacy and Primary Education? 
 

If not, what information can you gather for yourself? 
 

And taking stock of the quantity and proportion of representation is important because it allows us to recognise the need for this drastic change in publishing. But looking only at these high level statistics, we aren’t always able to understand another important factor, which is the quality of representation available. 
 

Next slide, I think, please Gethin. So I therefore want to introduce you to another way of thinking about reading Sims Bishop’s metaphor of children’s literature as a mirror. Professor Karen Coates points out, and she’s looking at realism as a mode of writing, that when we think about mirrors.  
 

We think of them as reflecting what’s in front of us in that straightforward way. You know, we look at a mirror and we see ourselves, or we see whatever it is that the mirror is reflecting, and therefore it’s an accurate imitation of the real world. But reflections aren’t always like that. They can be deceiving. So Coates’s work invites us to think more carefully about the quality of the mirror itself. Rather than only for what it reflects.  

And for Coates, it’s about recognising that mirrors can have different properties that change a reflection. Take, for example, a broken mirror that splits and duplicates the image in all sorts of different ways, or one of those funhouse mirrors that distorts everything, even changing room mirrors, you know how they make you look tall and thin, so you’re more likely to buy the clothes. 
 

Those sorts of things, those sorts of mirrors can help us understand that mirrors don’t just reflect in this straightforward way. They actually work to frame, to focus, or sometimes even distort what we see. Now, as I mentioned, Coates talking about to what extent realistic fiction is a reflection of the world, while Sims Bishop is focusing on representation specifically. 
 

But I think that these two ideas can usefully be brought together as an invitation to think about the quality of the mirror or the window or the sliding glass door and how that’s included in children’s literature.  

So just as a mirror has edges that limit what can be seen, what’s in and outside of the frame, books that aim to represent certain identities or experiences may focus on particular aspects while excluding others. 
 

Or they may present those sort of distorted views that don’t capture the nuance of lived experiences. And through this lens, we can see how authenticity and representation is also so crucial. Stories about marginalised or underrepresented groups written by authors from those groups have become increasingly recognised to be vital to inclusive literature. Where previously identities and experiences, I’m sorry to say, have largely been co-opted by majority groups without really the space being left for marginalised authors to tell their own stories.  

So in the module then when we talk about diversity and inclusion, we’re addressing 
multiple interconnected ideas. Fundamentally, diversity is key to inclusive literature. If there’s not a range of identities represented, it’s not diverse. But inclusion goes beyond whether someone is represented or not, and it’s about how diverse identities and experiences are represented. There are characters from marginalised groups relegated to stereotypes or to secondary positions. 
 

Are their identities presented as valid and valuable to the story? Are they complex and intersectional? Are their stories told with respect? And who is voicing that story and what knowledge and lived experience do they have? Inclusive literature means 
you know, meaningful representation that celebrates diversity rather than merely just acknowledging it. 
 

And next slide, please, Gethin. We can begin to see how much these questions matter when we turn our attention to young readers themselves. So as you’ll see on the screen, recent research from the National Literacy Trust in 2022 revealed that 38.9% of children and young people said that they found it difficult to locate books with characters who reflect their own experiences and identities. And the impact of representation can be hugely significant. And those children are missing out on it. 

You know, it can validate children’s experiences and identities. It can develop empathy and cross-cultural understanding. It can challenge prejudices and stereotypes. And importantly, it can foster an enjoyment of reading. We regularly see that children whose identities aren’t represented in books find it harder in cases to engage and to enjoy reading for pleasure.  

So this is where it comes down to our role then, and I’m using our to mean all of us as scholars and practitioners in the field. Our job is to ask these difficult questions of the texts that we encounter. How are the diverse characters and experiences portrayed? What explicit or implicit messages might there be? Whose perspectives are centred or marginalised? How is publishing affecting representation? 
 

And then of course, how do these diverse texts do the stuff of literature? You know, how do they employ literary devices? How do they employ different techniques, etc.? So on the programme, we explore these questions and themes in depth through close reading of texts, engagement with critical theory and consideration of how we can apply them to our own research, or creative writing.  

And we examine how children’s literature can either essentially reinforce or challenge these dominant narratives about identity and difference. We think about the role of publishers, educators and other gatekeepers in shaping the landscape of children’s literature. And we think about how we can contribute to making children’s literature more inclusive and representative of all readers. 
 

I’m going to leave it there. It’s only a taster. I don’t want to go sort of too far into it.  

But I would invite you to take away a bit of a question as you consider whether you’d like to take your study of children’s literature further. And that is, what mirrors, windows and sliding glass doors did you find or maybe wish that you’d found in books of your childhood? 
 

How have these representations and early experiences with stories shaped your understanding? And how do you think children’s literature can grow to not only shape our changing world, you know, the topic of our sort of focus today, but also to better reflect the diverse world that has been here all along. 
And I will hand back to you Gethin. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Thank you so much, Emily. I always really enjoy listening to you speak and your taster elements as well. Thank you so much. That was brilliant. Okay, we’ve got a couple of questions coming in whilst you were going through that section. I’m going to post them here. 

 
Emily Corbett   
Well, thank you, that’s so kind. 

 
Gethin Jones 
One second, so thank you to Natasha and to Ebony I think it is. Yep. So what I’m going to do, let me just check to see what’s coming up next. 
 

Yeah, what we’ll do, we might, let’s take these questions now, because one of them is around, so a question from Natasha around the on-campus version. So online she’s noticed that the MA Children’s Literature Theory and Practice is listed. Besides being online, the question is, is there a difference between these courses? 
 

Oh, you’re on mute. Yeah, yeah. That’s okay. No worries. 

 
Emily Corbett 
I realised I was on mute because my dog’s barking, so I was trying to protect you from that. No, no, I apologise for the dog. You will get used to her if you join the programme.  

So there are some differences, but they are minimal. One of the biggest differences is in the way that we’ve carved up the modules. So because we want the online version, to be more accessible, to be worked asynchronously around people’s lives. We have 8 15 credit modules, whereas on campus we have 4 30 credit modules.  

So the content is still there, the content is still the same, but you just come at it in a slightly different order, but in a slightly different grouping. And yes, you know, we sort of say besides being online, but there are differences then embedded in 
being online or not, such as the mode of study.  

The on campus version has weekly seminars, for example, and is very discussion based, whereas the online version far more invests itself in being project based and task based alongside some really nice forum discussions. Faculty is the same across both of the versions. Like I mentioned, I run both. 
 

I think that really sort of is the gist of it, but I’m very happy to take more specific questions about the differences as well if there’s something particularly you’re interested in knowing. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Thanks, Emily. And yeah, I would say to Natasha as well, we can connect after the session. If you’ve got any specific questions, you can speak with my team, you speak with Emily and the team as well.  

Great, great question. And then Emily, you’ve got a similar question in terms of, but Emily’s background is in illustration and is seeing that the on-campus version has the illustration pathway. So just wondering, is that an option for the online version or is it what is it likely to be developed in any way, do you think? 

 
Emily Corbett 
So the illustration pathway unfortunately isn’t currently an option. That is an open question that we’re thinking about as we develop. We’re in our first year of the online programme at all and it is an open question as to whether children’s illustration also is added online.  

But I cannot offer you any certainty on that at the minute because there’s all sorts of factors around practicalities etc of transitioning something that’s very studio based  
into an online version. Would it be possible to take the online courses? It’s currently structured with a little occasional personalised support guidance from the children’s illustration team. 
 

So the children’s illustration team, the illustrator part of the illustrations team aren’t currently involved because this is a, the on-campus programme is a collaboration between education where I’m based and media where the illustration portion of the programme is based. 
 

I also am involved with working with the illustrators because they take modules across education, etc. But in terms of would you be getting support with your illustration? No, sadly not at this time.  

But there’s nothing to stop you starting this programme as a PG cert and then possibly thinking about transferring to on campus. But I appreciate with the circumstances you’ve outlined there, that would be quite difficult.  

So it might be a case of getting started if you want this sort of foundation and waiting and seeing, but I just, I wish I could promise you better news, but I can’t guarantee it and I wouldn’t want to missell you. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Okay. Thanks, Emily. No, that makes sense.  

And again, Emily, you are the other Emily who’s asked the question. You are welcome to get in touch after the session. We can have a more detailed conversation.  

Okay, keep questions coming in. I’m going to move on with some couple of information on slides, and then we’ll pick up the questions again. So yeah, so the online environment and, you know, what we’ve done a lot of work on is developing 
the platforms and the framework for you to succeed in an online environment.  

So, you know, we really want to make sure you’re comfortable and you are both, you know, have the resources and the support you need, but also a challenge and, you know, thinking critically and analytically and developing those skills for 
either career progression or personal development as well.  

So there’s a really supportive team that wraps around the online classroom environment, the GOAL team, the Goldsmiths online and adaptable learning team, they’ve created a lot of the virtual interactive elements and the assessments and personalised feedback loops and stuff. This is an example of what it might look like in terms of like a taster lecture from Michael. Is there anything that you wanted to add there, Emily, in terms of student experience from the online perspective? 

 
Emily Corbett   
No, I think you’ve captured it beautifully, although I’d be happy to answer any specific questions that students have around what week to week would look like, etc. 

 
Gethin Jones    

Perfect. Thanks, Emily. And yeah, some of the benefits, obviously, in terms of accessibility and flexibility, you know, it’s designed to fit around your busy schedule, whether you’ve got, excuse me, full-time work or family commitments. You know, that’s the audience that these programmes are designed for. 
 

Do you want to add like expectations around the hours commitment in terms of study time? And that’s a question that we get quite a lot, Emily. 

 
Emily Corbett  
Yeah, of course. So as he’s got there 15 to 20 hours, we technically try to aim for 18, but that feels too precise to be useful sometimes. So essentially there’s a mix of engaging with the readings and some of the content that’s available online, but also formative activities that we set to support you going away and doing your own research in your own time. 
 

Whether that be, you know, looking at resources that are available more widely, exploring the Aunt Thompson Uther Index, for example, which is a nice little catalogue of fairy tales, has been something that the students have been doing recently. So it’s, yeah, between 15 and 20 hours, but whenever that suits you, whether that’s the middle of the night or first thing in the morning, etc. 

 
Gethin Jones  
And we’ve mentioned there the just in time element where you won’t take on loads of modules at the same time. You’ll actually progress through one at a time as you go through the course then as well. Yeah. Okay. In terms of that digital resource, then you’ll have full access to the online library at Goldsmiths. 

 
You know, you wouldn’t necessarily need to purchase any books or anything like that, but you can do if you want to. Sometimes it’s good to have physical copies of things. But there is an extensive collection that you’ll get closer to the enrolment stage.  

And then the module leaders are on hand in terms of support, you know, supervision for dissertation is a good example of that as well. And then there’s disability and wellbeing support. If you do have any additional needs, then we can obviously talk about any adjustments that are needed as well. Contact time with academics, Emily, is that something, because we do get asked that from time to time in terms of the synchronous versus the asynchronous approach. 

 
Emily Corbett  
Yeah, so the majority of the teaching is asynchronous. You know, a lot of my investment into the learning goes in before you even join the module, because it’s all sort of laid out there for you with recordings and with written pieces and a collation of materials. But there are two optional live webinars per module, so that’s opportunities to come together as a group, as a cohort and have a chat about everything.  

We’ve actually got one coming up tomorrow for the current students to talk a little bit more about their assessment. And then I’m also just available, or module leaders are available if you want to send us an e-mail, if there’s anything that’s worrying you, very, very happy to support you with any of the academic sort of side in addition to Gethin’s brilliant team who deal with everything with the student experience. 

 
Gethin Jones 
Thanks, Emily. Admission, so some of the formalities around the application process. So it’s very easy to apply, you know, in terms of the system and the functionality. It’s, I’ll come on to the documentation required, but essentially in terms of your undergraduate degree, if you’ve already studied a relevant subject like literature, humanities, education, childhood studies, etc, then a 2-1 or equivalent is absolutely fine. And then if you don’t have it in that discipline and you’ve got some relevant work experience, we will accept other subject areas as well. 
 

It’s also worth noting for non-standard applicants, so if you don’t satisfy those and you’ve got maybe a slightly different qualification or you’ve got considerable work experience, yeah, so we would look at the whole profile. So we would consider non-standard applications with a CV, and a personal statement as well.  

For anybody that’s not, that doesn’t have English language as their first language, we may need some evidence of English language standards as well, so information on the screen, but again, my team will advise on that. And yeah, we’ve got the postgrad certificate as an entry point. 

 
For anybody that’s maybe returning to education and maybe got a more of a less, sort of a less of a standard in terms of academic undergraduate profile and may need to just do that first before progressing on to the rest of the course. We’ve got a question on that element from Nicola, I think as well, Emily, around. She says, “sounds fantastic. Thanks. How long does the certificate take? And what’s the difference between a certificate and a diploma?” 

 
Emily Corbett   44:19 
Okay, so the postgraduate certificate is the smallest award available. The postgraduate diploma is the medium and then the full MA is the large. The postgraduate certificate is 60 credits, which for this programme means taking four of the modules.  

There are some breaks built in, so I’m not going to be able to calculate 
for you this sort of precise length of time, but each module is 8 weeks long. So you can think of it as having four lots of eight weeks of study will go into the postgraduate certificate.  

And then the diploma is 120 credits, if I’m remembering correctly. So that is all of the taught modules without taking that final project to the independent study or the independent creative portfolio. 

 
Gethin Jones 
Excellent. Thanks, Emily. 

 
Emily Corbett   
Is the October intake an option for these two? Yes, the postgraduate certificate and the postgraduate diploma are just a standard part of the programme. So you would be able to take them if you wanted to join in October.  

Instead, you could equally start now and pause if you needed to with a little bit of flexibility. In terms of what it costs, it changes a little bit with inflation each year, so I can’t give you the sort of precise amount. 

 
Gethin Jones   
Yeah. 

 
Emily Corbett   
But it is just timesing that module amount by the number of modules required. So for the certificate, that’s times by 4. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Yeah, exactly. So it’s on a modular basis, as covered earlier in the slides. So you’ll get some information around that specific cost as well. So for certificate and diploma, it’s just proportionately less modules, but the price per module is the same.  

OK, thanks, Nicola. Great questions. And then I’ve got a couple of other things coming in. So we’ve got, oh, what I’m going to do first, let me just cover this. So yeah, the application process, as I mentioned earlier, degree certificate, if you’ve got your transcript, you’re going to need that recent up-to-date CV.  

If you do need evidence of English language, that will be needed as well. And if you’re applying without the standard kind of degree level, then a personal statement is optional too. Deadline 7th of August for the 31st of August start date, and that includes that 1000 pound scholarship discount as well. So just to bear that in mind.  

And there’s a QR code here as well if anybody wants to go straight to that page and have a bit more of a nose around now, that’s fine.  

Martina’s got a great question. So going back to your taster element, Emily, so she’s asking, “looking at the decline in diversity reflected in the published books in 2022, I’d be fascinated to know your thoughts on the causes of that backlash?” 

 
Emily Corbett  
Yeah, so this is an hour long question in itself, but I’ll give you my sort of shortened answer. First of all, I think all of us are aware of the political climate that we’re in globally and the fact that with the increase of banned books and the increase of penalties around publishers who publish diverse materials, I think that’s contributing. 
 

I also have a particular theory about why there was that peak in 2022 that then declined in 2023. And I hypothesise that it is partly to do with the very sad murder of George Floyd, because if you think about the publishing cycle, there tends to be around a two year delay from commissioning through to publication just because of how long things take to put together.  

So I think 2020 when there was the proliferation in the Black Lives Matter movement and all of those conversations were very sort of urgent. Two years later, we see the effect of that in publishing because all of those books that were commissioned at that time get published in 2022. 
 

But then very sadly, the fact that those conversations didn’t have such a sustained importance as I believe they should have had means that there is then a lull again in that form of publishing. 

 
Gethin Jones 
Thanks, Emily. Great question. And yeah, it could be quite a lengthy discussion, I suppose, if we had more time. But yeah, it’s good to have some insights. A couple of other questions. So one from Sylvia. “Thanks for the presentation. I’m curious to understand if there’s a difference in the depth of the discussions between the online 
and the on-campus programs. What are your thoughts on that, Emily?” 

 
Emily Corbett 
So Sylvia, yes, to be quite frank, I think there is, but I think that’s because the priorities of the activities are slightly different and it will depend on what you personally want as a form of learning. There are rich discussions in both places, particularly when we think about some of the meatier topics that get people really interested. 
 

But the on-campus programme sits people in a room together for three hours where discussion is the primary focus. So there’s inevitably going to be lots of discussion. Whereas the online programme really focuses on facilitating you becoming a sort of researcher and a project manager, etc, within your own right, within your own study. 
 

So by comparison, we get a lot more depth through that side of things, a lot more depth of the applied action based learning. So if you are somebody who wants to sit and discuss, then I will be honest, I think the on campus programme would be better suited.  

But if you want the more holistic approach where you’re sort of guided through, curating your own learning, then the online programme has lots to offer. And discussion is as good as the people sort of who are engaging in it.  

So if you are someone who’s really chatty, you will probably find that if you get chatty on the forum, there’ll always be people who want to take you up on that invitation. So yeah, I guess that’s kind of a bit of a high-level answer, but that’s what I would say. 

 
Gethin Jones   
That’s great. Thanks, Emily. That’s a really great question as well and useful for others, I’m sure, as well. We’re thinking about on campus and online versions.  

Another follow up question from Natasha. So she says, “thanks for the earlier answer.” She’s working as a teacher interested in creative writing, and on the on-campus assessment criteria, there’s mention of a portfolio of your own writing if you’re interested in the creative writing pathway. So the question is, “does the online course have the same creative writing pathway?” 

 
Emily Corbett 
So the online course doesn’t currently have a dedicated pathway of creative writing, but instead creative writing is embedded into the programme. Whereas the on-campus programme, you can choose to completely forego creative writing and do the theoretical element.  

So for the online version of the programme, you still have two modules in creative writing. You still have the bespoke creative writing final project. So you can think of it, if you like, of taking a creative writing pathway. It just doesn’t exist in that sort of separated form.  

But I will say that there is change for the on-campus programme this year as well, and we’re moving to a creative and critical pathway because we’re recognising that students actually really benefit from doing both of these things in tandem and then they can sort of shift their focus through assessment and through kind of personalization, how much creative writing versus theoretical work that they want.  

So it’s a bit of a messy, complicated answer that no, there isn’t a specific creative writing pathway, but that will not stop you thriving as a creative writer because the programme is designed for you as well. 

 
Gethin Jones  
Thanks, Emily. Another great question again. And yeah, thanks so much everybody for questions. You seem really super engaged a bunch and be great to catch up with you after the session at some point. We’re going to probably wrap up there if there’s no more questions. Just a comment from Matina saying “thank you.” You’re very welcome, Matina. 
 

Yeah, so thanks so much to everybody.  

So a couple of points on next steps. So we will follow up with a link to the recording of today’s session so you can watch back in your own time, including the taste of element from Emily too.  

The QR code is on the screen. If you did want to go through to the application pages, have a little look around. But my team are on hand as well. So when you follow up emails, you’ll get the links to the recording and information on how to connect with us as well.  

You do have, if you did want to start at the end of August, there is time, depends what you’ve got, you know, in your kind of life in terms of commitments and making that happen. But you can take advantage of that £1,000 scholarship as well, don’t forget. And Emily, is there any closing comments you want to make for today’s guests? 

 
Emily Corbett   
I just want to thank everyone so much for coming. I know it’s an hour of your life and I really appreciate you giving it to us. And I just also secretly having a look through the attendees and I can see we’ve got a couple of current students and also people I know that are already applied to join the programme and it’s just lovely to be able to connect with you in this way. And I hope to get to know a lot more of you very soon. 

 
Gethin Jones    
Fantastic. And thanks again, Emily. Always really enjoy these sessions. Appreciate that. We’ll catch up soon. And thanks, everybody. Have a great day and hopefully we’ll catch up again soon. Thanks. 

Emily Corbett    
Thanks everyone and thanks Gethin.